Needed & Known

The Podcast exploring extraordinary life stories

friendship

How to Be a Quality Friend with Heart Convos

This friendship kinda sucks.

You know it. They know it. But what now? Does your relationship need more Snapchats or TikTok dances together? Perhaps a night out will fix it? 

Take the guesswork out of what’s next. In this episode, KB from Heart Convos shares her journey from Trash Friend to having meaningful Heart Convos. What does a good friendship look like? How do I make simple changes to get to the relationships I want to have and to be the best kind of friend that I can be?
The transcript and resources for this episode can be found below.

Subject Resources

Heart Convos Website

Ted Talk: 9 Ways To Tell If Your Friends Are Trash

KB and Heart Convos on Instagram

Transcript

Cassandra: 0:00

Hey friend, it’s Cassandra, and this is needed average moments into a great life by learning, growing, and I interview amazing people, who’ve improved their Today I’m interviewing KB from Heart Convos. She’s a conversation coach who has a lot to If you’ve ever wondered how to go deeper in your relationships why some people don’t, this is the episode for you.

KB: 0:37

Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited

Cassandra: 0:39

to be here. Okay. So let’s just start at the beginning. Tell us about your revelation that you were a trash friend.

KB: 0:46

I don’t know if it was a one time moment, however, I think And I think I had one too many bad breakups and friendship. I had just a ton of disappointing conversations, to that place of like, I don’t know what’s wrong and I’m tired And so. It wasn’t a one time like, oh my gosh, like I see just a discontent with being where I was in friendship. And over time it was like, I’m sick of this. Like I need something different. And so that’s how it, that’s kinda how it started for me.

Cassandra: 1:31

That’s awesome. I think what drew me to you is the fact that I have I’m like, no, you’re not a bad friend to me. I don’t know who you’re being a bad friend to. And also I feel like a bad friend, a lot of the time, That’s the person I want to be a friend with. That’s the part, that’s the person I do not want to be And so you start identifying those things That’s not good. Oh, we get along real well, everything is good. But then this thing happened and I don’t want to talk about it. So we’re just going to forget about,

KB: 2:05

yeah and after you have one too many bad situations, paying attention, because when everything’s going good, Nobody’s paying attention to anything. It’s when you have the, you lose the one friend that you thing blows up that you didn’t really want to blow up or drift Like how we got here. And so where did we go wrong?

Cassandra: 2:31

Anyway? So many of us feel like trash friends sometimes. And like, we know when we’re being a bad friend, we know when like, we don’t know exactly what we’re doing or how to fix it. And I think for, you know, there’s two types of art There’s the pursuer, the one who’s like, what can Can we just, what can I do? I know I did something wrong. Like what can I do? And then there’s the other side. That’s like, Just let us slide. We’ll just move on.

KB: 3:00

Yeah. I think people swing to the extremes of like, I don’t care. I’m too busy. I don’t have time anyway, like that guarded. Like I’m not going to let this affect me more than I than I want it to, or more than what’s convenient for me. But then there’s the other side that of people who are just Like I want this to work and sometimes that’s motivated sometimes there are people who, or like they, they are they don’t like to lose things for not, or let things Like they want understanding they want clarity. They don’t like kind of living in the fog and uncertainty And so they’re the ones asking the questions, But it’s all about values. It’s all about where you’re at. It’s all about what you want. And if you know what you want, you will be more intentional But when it comes to friendships, we’re not thinking date, we think deeply when we’re married, we’re trying to, We think very deeply when it comes to friendships,

Cassandra: 4:11

Well, and they’re all the same. I mean, obviously I’m not sleeping with my friends, but. Ultimately the core of the relationship is the same. That, that like the, the needs are, are similar, Everything is similar about your friendships or whoever you’re dating or whatever, the similar core. But like you say, we don’t put any emphasis on that Ooh. But if I want to get married, I know what I expect. I know what he needs to look like. I need.

KB: 4:44

Cool reg, I don’t understand why in friendship, we kind like stand the test of time and to get us through our Yeah. You know, again, like you said, in marriage, in dating people They have their expectations listed out some of them since They’ve got boundaries, you know, in mind for like what And again, in my mind, I’m thinking to myself, if practicing this in your friendships, your entire life, And all of a sudden just know what to do. I don’t, I, it would be hard to believe that that’s possible. Which is why I think the people don’t stay together because is whatever sex is, whatever friendship is going to be. The reason why you and I are still in this thing,

Cassandra: 5:40

I do

KB: 5:42

for the friendship, you know, But a lot of people realize like, oh, there’s not really a friendship here. There’s not, we got together for agreement’s sake, But people downplay the power of friendships so often. And that’s really, I think what sustained That’s really good. That’s really good. So if you’re listening and you’re single, go make some real Just make good friendships with people. You, you hear those stories of like, we were friends for so And that’s why that’s genuinely why I think that happens. Or like, so like my husband, we met through a friend, a friend know, you see him and you’re like, who’s that I don’t want Keep your Playboy or whatever, which is hilarious. You know, you get this impressions and it doesn’t, And we don’t do, we don’t do anything like that for friends she’s got a nice first or, you know, I really liked whatever. And you base everything on that. One thing that you liked or that one conversation instead of. Yes, the deepness. So listen, if we picked our S if we picked our romantic we pick our friends, there would be so much judgment. Like you didn’t ask any questions, did you? Yeah, no, it would be a problem.

Cassandra: 7:09

Well, and I think to your point, it kind of These were good. He was, he was good looking. She was good looking and that’s all it took. And here, like we’re Megan horrified faces of like,

KB: 7:24

here. This isn’t going to end. Well, this is not,

Cassandra: 7:28

those are the worst. Nobody wants to go to your wedding. I gotta be honest with you. I’ve been to a couple where you sitting in the way you’re like, Lord, please let this work out, please. Let me be wrong. I’m okay to be wrong about this. So to, to segue a little you have a really great Ted And we should look through those trash bins. If, if anybody listening once hear the Ted talk, I think you We’re not going to talk about all nine of them. What are your favorite ones on that list of like, If I could summarize these nine things down into a few

KB: 8:05

Yeah. So the Ted talk is called nine ways to tell if If you type in that nine ways to tell it’ll pop up Ooh, they won’t go deep as my favorite. I love the story that I tell about my daughter And so I, I feel like I need to go through all nine so that I don’t even know if I could say them verbatim. Let me see. The relationship is one sided. They don’t respect your boundaries. They’re not supportive. They treat other people poorly. They won’t fight for you or with you. You’re not a priority. Did I say that? They won’t go deep. They’re abusive. They’re character sucks. I think are the nine. I think I might’ve repeated one, but my favorite one is number of my daughter us taking her to Disney world and she wanted And so we get to the pool she’s in her bathing suit I don’t, first of all, I don’t do shared water. So it was a big sacrifice for me. Okay. And so we’re in the pool. When I come on a mine, like, come get it. And she’s like, no, she’s just enjoying, like keeping her feet, of playing at the, you know, not even in the shallow end, After about 45 minutes of this, we were like, oh, we’re So we get up to the room and naturally her grandparents say, How did it go? Was like, it was good. We went swimming. And in my mind, I know you did not sweat. I don’t know what your definition of swimming. But what you did was not swimming. And I think sometimes people feel that way in They’re being honest, open, vulnerable, transparent. It’s like, you know, you’re not really, like you might But that transparent part, that vulnerability part, you’re And you keep resisting going there because you’re guarded. You feel like, oh, if I go there, have the ability They’re going to hurt me. So I just kind of act like I have it all And that to me is, is I think my favorite of online Not because I enjoy people that won’t go deep, but that people should be mindful of in their relationships. That when a person will not lean into vulnerability in something about what they want and your, the relationship

Cassandra: 10:36

you know, I think that’s so. That’s so good. We have, we have some interviews coming up and One lady Who has cancer, who has she’s in remission now. So you know, she’s been fighting cancer and just the goes through that of like, I have no control over my body. I can’t do what I want. And if you’re not willing to have those conversations, one, And two. That relationship isn’t growing. And if it’s not growing, it’s dying. There’s no such thing as standing.

KB: 11:07

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Cassandra: 11:09

So how can we go from being unavailable trash connections and as wise woman might say: Heart Convos

KB: 11:20

Yeah. You know let me just say in general, it’s not that, well, dang, I’m a trash friend because I’ve been in one side at And that doesn’t make you a trash friend. I think what, what I would say makes someone a trash friend for so many years is that I had all of these traits. Alive and active in my life. And I was unwilling to change them. I had settled down into them and made them the standard Seeing the damage that it was causing and then wanting to. Fix or mend or grow beyond the behavior and And so don’t feel away if you’re like, oh, I can relate to that. That’s great. You can relate to that. That means that you are, there’s a level of self-awareness becomes what are you going to do about it now? And so we’ve all been through bad breakups. We’ve all been, yeah. Awkward situations with our friends, we’ve all been things the question becomes, are you going to verbalize Are you going to set new boundaries? Are you going to practice new habits that you weren’t doing? So when you got into that place where you’re fed up with the You essentially start to debrief, which is just a And you’re trying to figure out where have And where do I want to go? And once you start asking those questions, that’s when I know Sometimes people just want to hear themselves talk. Some people just want to talk just to say that they Isn’t effective, didn’t go anywhere. And isn’t producing the outcome that they want. And so heart combos are the only conversations I And heart is an acronym for honest, elephant And in my personal opinion, if you are not having conversations or one of these five things, you’re probably not having It’s not a conversation that’s going to get you And typically. Conversations that are hard. Conversations are conversations that we perceive So we’re like, well, did you tell her, well, no. Well, why didn’t you tell her? Oh, so hard. Okay. Like, all right. Did you know that that didn’t go well this time, but next should probably set a boundary and said, you’re not comfortable It’s going to be so hard. You know, what did you, did you, did you confront your boss? No, that’s such a hard conversation. These things in our mind that are hard and difficult And they seem hard because it’s going to require a level Right. Right. And so the heart conversation is just you being honest, when Give the honest answer, not the, not the answer that wants to hear, not the answer that you usually give. If it’s not true in the moment, give the honest answer. If there’s an issue in the relationship or in addressed the elephant in the room, call it out. However, people don’t like to have those conversations or have about that thing that seems like larger than life. People don’t do that. They like to stay on the surface. They don’t like to rock the boat. They don’t, they don’t want to go into the deep end. They want to sit at the steps, like my daughter and Right? Like that’s not what we’re doing here, you know? And so that, that is, I think how a person turns the corner are either exposed to a side of them that they don’t They become distracted. In the way that they’re connecting with other people. And the question is when you see yourself for who you are, eyes to it and like, pretend that it’s not there, or are You know? And so that’s really, I think that for myself, Again, going back to your initial question for how I And again, I’ve had a lot of conversations And I just got tired of, I mean, I was, it was exhausting. I don’t know if anybody ever can relate to that, How

Cassandra: 15:33

is the weather anyway? You know, like,

KB: 15:36

like how’s that working out for you? Yes,

Cassandra: 15:39

that is, oh, how’s that working out for you? You did all these things. How’s that work?

KB: 15:44

How’s that working out for? You

Cassandra: 15:46

talk about heart combos though. So we’re talking to, let’s say we’re talking to brand new, like I don’t have all of them. I, you know, I’m a pretty good friend. I think there’s a thing that happens that we So that listeners have an action step. Cause you can’t, you can just dive into the heart combos and heart combos, but how beautiful are they going to be KB let’s

KB: 16:15

the conversations that you’re going to try to have,Cassandra: 16:17

it will be awful. You need practice and what’s the best way maybe to get practice.

KB: 16:24

Listen, the conversations are going to be rough. At first, probably anxiety inducing, like legit. You’re going to talk to yourself and be in your head And then you’re going to, you’re gonna, you’re going I’m doing it. And then you’re going to go. And everything that you thought would happen will not happen. And that could be a good thing or a bad thing. Like you could think that, oh, this is not going to go well. And the person’s like, oh my gosh. Yes, absolutely. I’m so glad that you said that like just water off a Duck’s Like, yeah. I wish you would have said it earlier. Like really. And you’re just like, why did I stress? I’ve almost died, almost killed myself, you know, over And it was the easiest conversation ever, but then situations where you’re going to be hopeful that the They’re going to understand. And next thing you know, they’ve completely flipped the know, Whenever you were bringing it to the table is your fault. And you’re selfish and this is, this was you. And it’s like, oh, I wasn’t prepared for that. And you’re going to feel completely betrayed. And, and the reality is in order to establish deep, relationships that you have to lean into vulnerability. Now, let me tell you a little. The key to deep, meaningful connections is vulnerability. But the formula for being egregiously hurt So like, if you think about the word vulnerability, the it means to wound a person is not vulnerable unless they are So whatever you think honorability is, if you can’t You might’ve been honest. You might’ve been okay. But you weren’t vulnerable. And the only way that deep, meaningful, intimate There’s no way around making those types of attachments with Okay. Now, I’m also saying in the same breath, that that is the be disappointed, to be hurt, to be taken advantage of. And so you have to make a decision every day and If deep, meaningful connection is a possibility and you think that in the beginning, you will probably leaning to It go wrong. I didn’t sign up for this. I just can’t. I am not here for this, but the, but the reality is in order people that are authentic and that are genuine, you And I’ll say this even after this, but People typically go into a relationship pretending to wants them to be or who they should be for the connection. And then the other person falls in love with that person, So then what happens is they just start creating acceptance for this person that you have shown them what Is that you think that you, the true you, the yourself is being accepted is being, is being embraced. So you let your guard down and you’re no longer pretending Well, what happens is now the other person is seeing And depending on the personality type, they’re like, who are you? I want the other person. I don’t like this. And so now you feel rejected. And let me tell you what is happening. You are being rejected, but the difference between you being you’ve invested six months, pretending is that the real Hurt more latent in the, in the ladder, right? It’s going to hurt more after you’ve invested. There’s been interest incurred. You both have been super intentional. You’ve cultivated intimacy. And now all that gets ripped apart because You know what I mean? You just show up on the front, end, the person. It’s their prerogative to say, I’d like you, I don’t like stake in it, you know, there, there are no, there’s no like It doesn’t, it doesn’t fill away. You know? I mean, I’m not saying that that the desire to connect Right. That’s my favorite part . And so it just explains the, the, that we feel when we don’t get the thing that we were hoping You are perfectly normal to feel that way. However, When it, it hurts more, it hurts more when you invested. And so all I’m suggesting is, as you’re thinking about vulnerability in order to attain deep, meaningful connections and that you think is it worth me not being vulnerable in order And then it falling apart later or. Completely, you know, like vulnerability is the only


Cassandra: 21:50

Part of it, a huge part of that, which And is knowing who, who you are for me. I was told all my childhood who I was and what I was like. And so as a 35 year old woman, I’m figuring, Like I didn’t, I didn’t have a favorite anything Cause I was like petrified to have a favorite anything. And so now I’m like, what colors do I like? You know, like, At my age. So part of that part, it’s all, it’s all this train It’s not something you listen to one podcast and It’s a, you got to get on board.

KB: 22:32

Absolutely. And you make a great point. You can not make sense of yourself in relationship If you can’t make sense of yourself, like you have to in order to know how you, I mean, in order to form healthy So let me just say that again. Clearly you have to be able to make sense of yourself before Okay, so you alone by yourself, understanding your narrative, are, how you got there again, where you want to go, what you All of, all of those things have to be solidified and up as your most authentic self, in a relationship So I go there, I agree wholeheartedly with what.

Cassandra: 23:21

I love it. KB, you are wonderful human. I’m so thankful for you. I’m so thankful for heart combos and all of the And for this time together,

KB: 23:31

Hey, I appreciate you. I really, really do thank you for elevating these types of think at the end of the day, I love the title of this space, Listen being mean. Okay. Can I just say this really quickly meeting, like the that statement in phrase gets such a bad rap. It’s such a bad rap. Like it’s like wrong. Like I just don’t want to be neat. I don’t want to be perceived as needy. I don’t want to come off as needy. It’s like, but you need, like, you do need, Of who you are. It’s a part of our makeup. It’s part of the way that we built. We form attachments with other people. If we were self-sufficient and didn’t need anybody, robots. So I love the fact that you are elevating this Right. And, and known, you know, and I think people need to know that You have something that you’re bringing to the table. So I love it needed to known as dope to me. I rock with it. I love it. I support it. And yeah, I’m excited to see where all this goes. So thank you for having me and for listening to math. Me get on my soap box

Cassandra: 24:51 KB’s friend tips on Instagram, or to learn more You can find links in the show notes or visit needed Thank you for helping KB to be needed and known until Bye.

3 Things Better Friends Do Better Than Before

Better Friend

Here’s what I’m not saying–I’m not THE BEST friend. I’m not THE WORST FRIEND. I’m simply a better friend than I once was.

Before putting effort into being a good friend, I simply bumbled along. Forgetting birthdays. Just hoping that friendships would work and let go of ones that weren’t easy.

I Saw the Sign

(thanks Ace of Base)

There wasn’t a monumental moment in my life that caused a shift. I had a slow realization that I had some crappy friends (or what KB at HeartConvos calls “Trash Friends”–friends who treat you like trash). My trash friends would cancel plans because something else sounded more fun. They would emotionally unload, then call me needy when I needed them. They were unpredictable, undependable, and rude with sarcasm.

My slow realization was that I was the same kind of friend I was attracting.

I was like a magnet for crappy friends because I was a crappy friend.

Ch-Ch-Changes

(thanks David Bowie)

Better Friends Avoid Sarcasm

I’m going to make a whole post about sarcasm, but sarcasm hides what we really think in painful words. It creates confusion to avoid the chaos of emotions. Don’t agree? Follow me on this:

Sarcasm is defined as “the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.“

Contempt? Contempt is “the feeling that a person or a thing is beneath consideration, worthless, or deserving scorn.”

That is: Sarcasm is the use of irony to mock or convey the feeling that a person or thing is beneath consideration, worthless, or deserving scorn.

I used to be excessively sarcastic. Any old friends who read this will likely be baffled that that’s not a core part of my character anymore. It hasn’t been for years.

Can I still be sarcastic? Yes. I’m a reformed sarcastic person, improved but not perfected.

But there is a serious freedom in knowing that my words are taken literally and sincerely, not confusing the recipient who knows I’m frequently sarcastic. I can say “I like your shirt” without freaking someone out anymore. Freedom.

Better Friends Use a Calendar

My mother-in-law is this majestic woman that remembers everyone’s birthdays and upcoming events. She would text me the day of a doctor’s appointment to ask how it went. How incredible is that?

One day, I asked for her secret. “How do you remember Every. Single. Event?!”

She looked at me and smiled gently, “I write it down.”

Why that blew my mind, I will never know, but I always thought I just had to remember all of my nieces and nephews and cousins and friends and their partners’ and their kids birthdays and events.

Nope.

I started writing it down.

My friend whose son has a surgery in September that she’s private about, but also inwardly freaking out about? I wrote down a reminder a month before, two weeks before, and the day before and after to follow up.

AND I put a reminder in a place I’ll see it. I developed a habit of checking the calendar (turns out they don’t work if you don’t use them, heh).

Better Friends Ask and Listen

The other change I made was to ask people questions and listen to their answers. A huge part of this is to practice mindfulness or the act of being present. I listen to the way they describe events or people. I ask questions about how they felt at that time. Why? It is essential to letting someone know you care and that they are Needed and Known.

Even more powerful is that when you remember how much she loves plumeria flowers because they remind her of her late mother and give her a birthday card with the flowers on it, she will feel even more connected to you. It’s called friendship.

Practice

All of these changes that I made were not light-switch-changes. They were practiced. I don’t remember every single fact a friend shares, I don’t send everyone birthday cards or call them on the right day. And I still deliver excellently executed and ever divisive sarcasm. But I made a note of my mistake, remember that I have room to improve, and move on.

I want to hear from you! What’s a ch-ch-change you’ve made to become a better friend?

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How to Get Muddy with Multiple Sclerosis at 21

How do I support my loved one through Multiple Sclerosis?

On this episode, I’m introducing you to my friend Allison. Allison is literally a brilliant beauty queen and her husband Shane is truly her Prince Charming. Shane was diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis unexpectedly and they made huge changes in their lives to keep up. Nearly 10 years later, Allison shares the impact the diagnosis and their relationships have had on their lives. We all know that the struggle with an illness or disease can potentially suck the joy out of life. But not for Allison, Shane and Multiple Sclerosis. Hear how they fight the MS blues and how you can support your loved ones too. 

The transcript and resources for this episode can be found below.
Subscribe now so you don’t miss a post!

Resources and More Information about Multiple Sclerosis

National MS Society

Transcript

How Allison Met Shane

…Sometimes dreams are good and they actually come true!

Allison on meeting her husband

[00:00:00] Cassandra: Hey friend, it’s Cassandra, and this is needed and known the podcast where we discover how to transform average moments into a great life by learning, growing, and becoming better humans together. I interview amazing people who have improved their communication, relationships and perspectives in unique ways in each episode.

[00:00:42] Hey Alison, how are you? 

[00:00:45] Allison: Good. How are you doing guys? 

[00:00:48] Cassandra: [00:00:48] I am so glad that you joined us today to talk about multiple sclerosis. I wanted to talk about your journey because I, I think that your story is it’s so compelling.  And it’s one of those this could never happen to me and then it does. And what do I do?

[00:01:04] So I feel like you have so much to share.  So we’re just going to dive right in  Tell me about growing up? Like, did you have like those quintessential little girl wedding, mommy dreams? 

[00:01:17] Allison: [00:01:17] I absolutely did. I have always been obsessed with Disney movies and the Disney princesses that find their prince charming. And honestly, I still feel that way. I think it’s good to have those kinds of dreams and confession time. I even prayed as a child that my husband would be tall and athletic and have two eyes and blondish brownish hair. And that describes Shane. So, you know, sometimes dreams are good and they actually come true!

[00:01:52] Cassandra: Oh my gosh, that’s perfect. Literally, as you’re describing it, I’m like, “Oh my gosh, that is literally Shane.” That’s fantastic. So how did you guys meet? 

[00:02:02] Allison: So we actually went to the school together. He moved to Edmond, OK from Kansas City, Missouri, and my best friend at the time actually went to school with him in Kansas city before he moved here.

[00:02:16] And yeah, she told me, she said, Alison Shane treats girls so nicely. He is like a prince. He’s the best you thought? Well, I mean, why not? Let’s go talk to him. So I just started to kind of flirt with him in class and he would walk me to my classes. And within a couple of weeks we felt like we were going to be together forever, which is funny looking back on it because I’m like, I hardly knew what I wanted for lunch.

[00:02:49] Right. You really do now? Well, I can barely pick lunch today, but 15 and a half. I decided that Shane [00:03:00] would be my husband. And here we are. 16 years later, still. Going strong. So some things you can get, right.

[00:03:09] Cassandra: [00:03:09] Even as a teenager, not everybody, but in your story that worked out so well. And so I love that. I love that your sweet, sweet story, because literally you’ve spent half your lives together over half your lives now.

[00:03:22] Allison: [00:03:22] Yeah.

6 Months of Marital Bliss and Two 21st Birthdays

I think no matter what age you are, it’s really hard to feel like a piece of what you thought your future would look like is gone, and you kind of lose your innocence. And to a large extent, it’s hard to be around your friends who are planning to go to the next football game while you’re talking about really serious treatments for a disease.

[00:03:25] Cassandra: [00:03:25] But things didn’t go according to plan it. Wasn’t a complete fairy tale.  What happened?

[00:03:30] Allison: [00:03:30] Yeah. So we got married July 17th of 2010 and in March 12th of 2011 Shane was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis and that was absolutely something that we did not plan for. We did not wish for hope for could not have imagined.

[00:03:55] It just completely threw us off course, to be honest. I mean, we were. 20 when we got married and 21 when he was diagnosed. And I think no matter what age you are, it’s really hard to feel like a piece of what you thought your future would look like is gone, and you kind of lose your innocence. And to a large extent, it’s hard to be around your friends who are planning to go to the next football game while you’re talking about really serious treatments for a disease.

[00:04:26] And it just. Kind of disconnects you from a lot of people. So that was certainly not something that we had planned for as kids.  

That Night

I don’t want to go anywhere. Like you can’t even touch my body. It’s hurting so badly.

Allison remembering Shane’s pain the night he felt the first

[00:04:36] Cassandra: [00:04:36] Can you tell us what you noticed? Like how did you get to the diagnosis? 

[00:04:41] Allison: [00:04:41] Absolutely. So Shane actually woke up in the middle of the night and he had the worst migraine of his life. His body was hurting and then the left side of his face and broke, went completely numb. 

[00:04:56] And I actually remember kind of rolling over in bed and not feeling him next to me. And I just instinctively knew that something was wrong. So I get up and I found him on the bathroom floor and he just kept saying, I don’t want to move.

[00:05:11] I don’t want to go anywhere. Like you can’t even touch my body. It’s hurting so badly. Yeah. So in my mind, I kept thinking. Maybe it’s a migraine, maybe, you know, it’s a small stroke. I just honestly didn’t have a clue what could cause all these symptoms to happen at the same time. So I got him back into bed and the following day he went to his primary care doctor and they were like, oh yeah, this is a really severe migraine.

[00:05:41] That’s why you have all this numbness and tingling. And we’ll put you on some blood pressure medication, because hopefully that will get rid of migraine and yeah. And so nothing got better. In fact, it kind of got worse. And so my grandmother actually passed away later that [00:06:00] week and I was supposed to travel to little rock Arkansas for her funeral.

[00:06:04] I am the designated speech giver in my family. So when someone passes away, I always right. The eulogy and give it for the family, which is an honor. But that week I was just so distracted with Shane’s health. So we decided we would just meet at mercy hospital. I was on my way to little rock and I thought, you know what?

[00:06:26] I don’t really want to leave town until I know that Shane’s okay. So I called him and I said, just meet me at mercy. This was about noon and eight o’clock that night. They had him diagnosed with Ms. Which seems crazy because that’s eight hours. It’s honestly super fast because most people go for years with symptoms and no diagnosis.

[00:06:49] Cassandra: [00:06:49] Oh, wow. And you hear that too, right? Like I knew something was wrong or sometimes there’s the opposite of like, no, it’s really just a bad migraine. And so that whole, like trying to [00:07:00] figure it out and I feel like the support of a spouse can really make the difference or friends even being like, this seems odd.

[00:07:06] Something’s not right. So. I’m so glad that you were there for him. You, you really are that friend though, too. That’s like, I’m there, you need something I’m there. And so I can imagine for your heart that there’s no way you could’ve gone to little rock without knowing something’s not, something’s not right.

[00:07:22] Allison: [00:07:22] So yeah. Yeah, exactly. That it would really just ate away at me. And I thought, well, best case scenario, we rule out everything and I can go comfortably. And then instead it was. This horrible diagnosis. And I had to get in the car at eight o’clock and drive the five and a half hours to little rock. So that was certainly a very difficult trip to make, but, and, you know, Shane wanted me to be there for my family and it made sense.

[00:07:48] So we trekked on board 

What is Multiple Sclerosis?

…if you’ve ever seen a rat or a rabbit to through a wire and you sort of have this frayed wire on the inside, and you can see where the animals eaten away at the coating around the wire.

Allison describing MS

[00:07:51] Cassandra: [00:07:51] Ms and all. So for those of us that don’t know, can you can use tell us what Ms is? What is multiple sclerosis? 

[00:08:00] [00:08:00] Allison: [00:08:00] Yeah, absolutely. So it is a progressively degenerative auto-immune disease. Basically what happens is your central nervous system identifies good parts of your body, but it sees it as bad.

[00:08:15] So you have this mileage sheet, it’s like a fatty tissue that sits around all of the synopsis in your brain. And those Synopsys are what help us make connections between. Our brain and our body parts. And what Shane’s body does is it sees those that fatty cell, the tissue around the synopsis, and it actually eats it away when it attacks his body.

[00:08:43] And  it may look at a healthy T cell and decide that it’s unhealthy or that it’s a virus or something. And it just attacks his body. So basically what ends up happening is you have a broken connection everywhere that there’s a scar. So multiple [00:09:00] sclerosis, many scars is kind of how I describe it. And if you can imagine if you’ve ever seen a rat or a rabbit to through a wire and you sort of have this frayed wire on the inside, and you can see where the animals eaten away at the coating around the wire.

[00:09:20] That’s what Shane’s body does. So the next time that an electrical current goes through that wire, it may not ever make it to the end point because it stops where it’s broken. So Shane’s body does that. Let’s say his brain tells him I want to pick up that cup. Well, if it goes through a broken connection, he may go to pick it up and then just drop it.

[00:09:42] So it’s, it’s pretty crazy, and it it’s different for everybody, but for the most part, that’s kind of what’s going on internally that causes permanent damage common at all, and people in their twenties. I mean, he’s 21 getting this diagnosis. How is that? [00:10:00] The, I knew a woman who had Ms and she was in her forties and I was like, oh, that must be something that, I mean, It’s not old by my standards at this age, but you know, when you’re in high school, college, you’re like that’s for older people.

[00:10:12] So do you happen to know the statistics on that? 

[00:10:17] No. I think most people are diagnosed mid thirties to early forties. I think increasingly we’ve seen younger people being diagnosed because we now know more about the disease and we were able to identify symptoms, but even with. That taken into account. I do think generally mid thirties to early forties or mid forties would be kind of a more normal diagnosis.

[00:10:43] And it actually predominantly impacts women. It’s about an 80 20 split. So males tend to have the more aggressive forms of Ms which hearing that was not super pleasant, you know? Cause you’re thinking. Well, how rare is it that Shane has it? Well, it’s already super rare. And then from being young, it was kind of rare on rare.

[00:11:07] So, you know, you just have to accept those things and move forward as best as you can. 

Diagnosis

We had to send his results to another hospital because we were really shocked by what we saw. And we didn’t want to tell you the wrong thing.

Allison sharing the doctors’ process

[00:11:13] Cassandra: [00:11:13] That goes back to your point of getting diagnosed within eight hours was actually huge eight hours. The second time. We’re not going to count the GP (General Physician), but the second time, because you, you went back in and you got a diagnosis, which is not the, kind of the way that most of those tests would have gone, they would have maybe pushed that out. So that just affirms your point of like, we got very fortunate to get diagnosed at eight hours. 

[00:11:39] Allison: [00:11:39] We did. And I honestly wish I knew who the ER physician was that came out to talk to us because. I wasn’t really in a good place. And I kept asking, why is it taking so long? I don’t understand what’s going on.

[00:11:53] And one of the radiologists came out and said, I’m so sorry. We had to send his results to another hospital because we were really shocked by what we saw. And we didn’t want to tell you the wrong thing. And now I’m so grateful for that, that they took all that extra time in the moment. All I could think about was, I mean, there’s nothing wrong, so why are we still here?

[00:12:14] And obviously that wasn’t the case. So I wish I could, I might have to figure out how it’s tagged with that physician and just apologize because then my head space was not good in the ER.

Future Changes

my tax returns showed I made a whopping $11,000 that year, and that was with working full time.

Allison, realizing that she would need a career change to support her family

[00:12:27] Cassandra: [00:12:27] I think that really demonstrates your heart of like still having compassion for that person. What is going through your mind about your lives and your future and your career paths where you maybe not in that moment, but shortly thereafter, you have to be thinking, what does this mean for us? 

[00:12:56] Allison: [00:12:56] Yeah, absolutely. So at the time that Shane was diagnosed, I was working as a teacher’s assistant.

[00:13:04] We’re a special needs child at a local elementary school. And my tax returns showed I made a whopping $11,000 that year, and that was with working full time. So I quickly realized that teaching was not going to cut it. And even if I had a classroom to myself, I still wasn’t going to make enough to provide for both of us.

[00:13:28] So I switched my major, actually just majored in. Political science because I thought it was interesting. And I thought I could tolerate the classes and get out as fast as humanly possible. So I did. And after I graduated, I applied for a ton of jobs. I mean, I was just picking up virtually any kind of job that I could think of.

[00:13:50] And of course I got zero callbacks and felt very depressed, very discouraged. Really hopeless because I thought here I am at this point in my life where I’m supposed to be providing security for my family. And I can’t even get a local nonprofit that requires half or high school diploma to call me back, you know?

[00:14:10] So I felt, I felt extremely discouraged and I just kept praying like, Lord, where am I supposed to go? I don’t, I don’t understand what you’re doing, know what I have to do. And I don’t know how to get there. And during a prayer, I felt led to apply for law school, which is hilarious because honestly, I don’t even tell people that I’m a lawyer because I don’t think it’s significant.

[00:14:36] I’d rather just talk about life and things that people have walked through. I don’t ascribe any certain special significance because I. Happened to pass the bar exam 

[00:14:49] Cassandra: [00:14:49] You’re not a typical lawyer. I think of you more like a Bob Goff, lawyer, that’s not relevant to anything about you. Like, it’s just kind of a side note. I’ve met a lot of lawyers and I would totally agree with that. I wouldn’t lead with that. I wouldn’t even include it unless it became necessary. And I think that’s kind of how you approach it too. 

[00:15:07] Allison: [00:15:07] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I was totally thrown off by that, but I, I mean, I had been like in the fetal position on the floor crying, very discouraged and I literally picked myself up and applied for law school. And when I got into it, I understood why God led me there because my brain just worked that way. He had just made me to be very analytical and I had done a lot of pageants. And so I was very practiced on, you know, how to have good, clear, concise conversation. And. Nice writing.

So it kind of all started to come together and  it just, it really was one of the hardest things I’ve ever had to do, but it also was such an amazing blessing because the entire time I thought about, you know, I’m not just here for a career change, I’m really here to [00:16:00] hopefully make a difference in Shane’s life and to show him how much I care and how much I want to pursue the best for our family.

[00:16:08] And then on top of that, just. Recognizing that all things are possible with God. And I may not feel capable of walking through it, but somehow he led me through it. And I’m still here ticking away. 

Breaking Stereotypes and Silent Diseases

[00:16:21] Cassandra: [00:16:21] I think that’s. That’s a tough, you handle that with such grace, because it really is. It’s a career move that I’m sure I know Shane well enough to know that he wasn’t like you’re going to have to buck up.

[00:16:32] Alison, because I can’t, I know that that’s something that you did, that you were like, this is something that I can do to make a difference in our lives.  But you still handled it with such grace. And I think that that’s so inspirational to anyone who’s going through. Something that they’re like, I don’t have control over this.

[00:16:49] And you’re like, I don’t like a lot of it is just is what it is and I have to roll with it.  But I still love Shane and he’s still my prince. So I love that so much.  I’ve had to make changes for work and I know. When I met Shane, I was shocked because just so anybody listening can get an image in their head.

[00:17:11] He is a prince charming. Like he is, he’s just your bow 100%.  And he’s super like super in shape, super muscular, like a bodybuilder type almost. And, and I’m not a gym person. Though I aspire.  And there’s room for improvement. He, he definitely is like your typical quote gym person.  She didn’t look sick.

Silent Diseases

Really taking a step back and recognizing that someone who has a handicap decal on their car may walk into Target looking completely healthy and normal, but they may be exhausted when they’re done and they may really need that close parking space.

Allison sharing how to give grace

[00:17:35] Can you talk about that? What are other stereotypes that I’m or somebody listening might have  that you want to make sure that you change? 

[00:17:45] Allison: [00:17:45] Yeah, absolutely. That’s definitely, probably the biggest one that we encounter when Shane tells someone that he has MS, or like, “But you don’t look sick and you’re in shape and you have fun and you have joy in you’re fun to be around, you know, it’s kind of like, how could that possibly be?”

[00:18:04] And so, yeah, definitely the first one is just that. Sometimes people have silent diseases. You know, they have conditions where they may look completely healthy, but internally they’re fighting a battle that people can’t see. And I think that’s true of all of us, you know, even if health is not it, we all have battles that other people can’t see.

[00:18:25] So just. Really taking a step back and recognizing that someone who has a handicap decal on their car may walk into Target looking completely healthy and normal, but they may be exhausted when they’re done and they may really need that close parking space. And then another thing too, that I’ve encountered pretty frequently is that  people have a tendency to think that symptoms are exaggerated or there’s no possible way that someone could still feel bad after all this time.

[00:18:55] And, you know, Shane frequently comes home and sleeps during the middle of the day. You know, he’ll get up at seven o’clock in the morning. And by two he needs a two or three hour nap. And it’s hard for other young people to understand because they just think it doesn’t make any sense. How is it possible lies to you to take your nav to survive?

[00:19:17] Politically. Yeah. So I would just encourage people that, you know, if you know someone who does have a condition, that’s kind of hard to understand, just believe them. When they say that they’re tired or they can’t make the birthday party, they can’t stay out late. Or maybe they need some extra time to get ready.

[00:19:34] There’s things like that. That aren’t necessarily obvious. From the get go, I think are just important to keep in the back of our mind. 

Symptoms and the Suck

…What I’ve recognized is I can’t control what happens, but I can control how I respond.

Allison on the symptoms

[00:19:42] Cassandra: [00:19:42] It sounds like what you’re describing is because his body’s constantly fighting itself. He is experiencing symptoms that we might experience. If we had a terrible flu or we were super sick or something was happening, we just feel fatigued and tired and our temperature is off. I know that’s important to him.  And, but he feels that way all the time. 

[00:20:05] Allison: [00:20:05] Yeah, exactly. So when it’s really hot outside, he’ll sleep for 10 to 15 hours during the middle of the day. And the heat just completely fatigues him. And then sometimes his body will just decide that he doesn’t need his left leg today.

[00:20:23] So his leg will go numb or it might be  in a lot of pain. And so every day is just something different and he don’t really know what to expect. But what I have found is that there’s kind of some freedom in that because I used to live under the illusion that if I just tried hard enough, I could control what was going on around me.

[00:20:45] And what I’ve recognized is I can’t control what happens, but I can control how I respond. And so just making the conscious choice to say, All right. We don’t know if you’re going to walk tomorrow. So why don’t we just live today with as much joy as we possibly can and really just pursuing that every single day surrender, like we don’t know what tomorrow holds nobody does.

[00:21:11] We just don’t have the luxury of pretending that pretending that we do. And so that, that kind of perspective shift I think is, is really important.  When you’re walking through a grieving season or, or something difficult, it’s just recognizing, you know, what, we can’t control it. And sometimes there’s a lot of freedom in that when you just say, we’re just going to choose to be joyful and do the best, we can complain a little bit along the way.

[00:21:38] Cause you know, you got to do that sometimes, but not stay down, you know? Keep keep going forward. 

[00:21:45] Cassandra: [00:21:45] I love that. You’re I love that you leave the room for the complaining and the, this sucks. Like this just sucks. Yeah. Keep moving along. Like just gotta keep going on. I love that you leave room for both. And I think it’s so important because there’s a, what do they call it?

[00:22:01] Toxic positivity of like being like fake positive and  I know you don’t have room for that inside your persona at all. But  I, I love that, that you have that balance of like, it’s okay to embrace both. You could even do it within moments of each other. It’s like multitasking feelings, just shifting back and forth.

Encouraging Others From the Mud by Showing Up

“..you still have dreams to pursue. And just not, not being willing to give up on that, even in the middle of the mud and the yuck…”

[00:22:21] Allison: [00:22:21] That’s so true. Yeah, you’re right. And I think, I think a lot of times that also plays into like how comfortable people are talking to you about your struggle, because they often feel like, I don’t know how to encourage someone, who is facing paralysis. Like right now, Shane’s in the middle of a relapse and he’s doing a lot better than he was eight or nine weeks ago, but his body just went totally numb and they didn’t know if he was going to walk or recover.

[00:22:49] And so people, I think, feel like how, how do you encourage somebody like that? I don’t know what to say. So I’m just not going to say anything. And what we’ve kind of realized is [00:23:00] sometimes it’s nice to just have somebody that. Sits in the mud with you and says, this really sucks. And you’re like, yeah, it does.

[00:23:06] And let’s go get a Starbucks or let’s go to the park and take a walk or just come sit on the couch and watch movies with us. And you don’t have to have something to say, you can just be a great listener. And that’s really been the biggest blessing for us is just having people around us that are like, Yeah, it does suck.

[00:23:28] This is, this is reality. And it’s what you’re feeling is real, but together we can still move forward and you still have value and you still have a life to live. You know, you still have dreams to pursue. And just not, not being willing to give up on that, even in the middle of the mud and the yuck.

[00:23:47] Cassandra: [00:23:47] I love that “sitting in the mud with them.”

Examples of What to Do or Say

What could I ask you guys in order to get into the mud with you? 

[00:23:51] How so? I think you’ve educated us on how we can sit in the mud with somebody, but how do we, how do we even ask to sit down? [00:24:00] Like, so what would be a great question for me to ask Shane? I know he’s not doing well. What could I ask you guys in order to get into the mud with you? 

[00:24:11] Allison: [00:24:11] I think. Just sending a text message, even that just says, Hey, I’m so sorry that you’re walking through this.

[00:24:18] I’m here. If you need anything, do you want me to go get a movie for you? Or do you have something that you really like to eat all stop by and bring it over? Like, you know, Shane loves tacos, so basically you could bring any kind of taco over to the house and he would be thrilled. And just kind of making yourself available to come and hang out.

[00:24:41] And sometimes, you know, everybody’s kind of in a place where they’re just not in the mood to have conversation and that’s okay too, but what’s nice is that when Shane is ready, he goes and looks back and sees. All these messages from people who reached out to him and people [00:25:00] remember that, you know, even if in the moment they don’t take you up on your offer, they will never forget that you reached out and that you took that time to have that tough conversation or to be available for it.

[00:25:12] So really just sending a text or a phone call or a Facebook message that just makes you available. I think speaks volumes and really is a blessing for those people walking through the trial.

Story Wrap-Up

[00:25:22] Cassandra: [00:25:22] That’s awesome. I think that’s very helpful, especially for people like me who are like, but Shane looks fine, but suddenly he’s not feeling very good. Like what can I do? So it’s something practical that we’re all capable of asking is, “Gosh, I know you’re not feeling great, but I also know that you love the mocha Choco latte, whatever, let me pick you one up.” So that’s awesome. Alison, I so appreciate you spending time with me and my listeners today.  And I am thankful for you and thankful for you sharing your story.

[00:25:55] I know it’s not, it’s not an easy story. It’s not a fun story, but  I think you’ve [00:26:00] really encouraged us on how we can do better at supporting our friends with. Their struggles. So thank you. 

[00:26:09] Allison: [00:26:09] Thank you. Thank you so much. It was such a great blessing to me, just to be able to share my story and just to pour in, hopefully to somebody fart and just to be an encouragement.

[00:26:20] So thank you for giving me. Your opportunity.

[00:26:23] Cassandra: [00:26:23] You’re welcome. I’ll see you later. I don’t know about you, but this episode makes me want to sit in the mud and laugh with a friend. Thank you for being a great listener and letting Alison feel Needed and Known. Want to talk more between episodes. Follow me on Instagram @neededandknown. For more information about multiple sclerosis click here.

Until you need me next time. Bye!

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