Needed & Known

The Podcast exploring extraordinary life stories

vulnerability

What Happens When You Actually Have Anxiety And Cancer?

Anxiety and Cancer

Sometimes those of us with anxiety think we have cancer. And then sometimes we actually do. And sometimes it makes the anxiety worse. Anxiety and cancer. I see a lot of learning opportunities here.

Today I’m introducing you to Courtney, who will share about her self-talk as she worked through some discomfort in her body, through her diagnosis, and shares about the cancer journey. This is episode ONE of TWO — Next week Courtney will give advice for how to get the right support for yourself as a patient and how to support someone through their cancer journey–what do they really need?
The transcript and resources for this episode can be found below.

Subject Resources

Courtney’s blog

American Cancer Society

Transcript

Cassandra: [00:00:00] Hey friend, it’s Cassandra, and this is needed and known the podcast where we discover how to transform average moments into a great life by learning, growing, and becoming better humans together. I interview amazing people who have improved their communication relationships and perspectives in unique cancer.

The dread that word alone brings, but why, what does it mean? Whether you or someone you love has cancer or like me, you’re just wished someone would spell it out on this episode. And the next I’m introducing you to Courtney. What I love so much about Courtney she’s self-aware and she shares in detail how she responded to her body emotional needs and about how cancer impacted her anxiety.

And she tells us the details about her cancer experience and the next week’s episode. She’ll continue her story and share more about her support system. 

Hey Courtney, 

Courtney: [00:00:57] Hey, Cassandra.

Cassandra: [00:00:58] Thank you so much for joining us today. I  and I’ve been following your stories since the beginning, and I’ve known you since before that.

And so I’m so thankful to you for sharing this. If anybody has read the name to this episode, then they’ll know you had cancer. What were there any signs ahead of time that this was happening? 

There were signs. I don’t know if I recognize the signs and I will say that. Form of cancer is going to look a little different when it comes to science.

So I can only speak to mine.  But with that, with that said, I experienced  Tightness in my stomach, which I was secretly hoping was just that I was getting really great six pack apps. And I, I learned later on that, that’s not what that was, but I got tightness in my stomach. And so when I would ever work out and do certain moves where I’m laying on my stomach, maybe it’s a Cobra position or a few other ones.

I would notice that it was uncomfortable. So it was really just discovered. And that lasted for probably eight or nine months. I didn’t think much of it. I just assumed. Okay, well, you know, there’s just some sensitivity there.  Then I experienced back pain and I thought that was just due to, you know, working, working out a little too hard.

So I went to physical therapy  and really, so it was like back pain, stomach pain, and. Other than that, I didn’t have a ton of, of symptoms at the time.  But I decided to go to the doctor just to figure out what was going on with my stomach.  I was feeling kind of in my  more in my esophagus area too.

 When I would have increased stress, I noticed more sensitivity. So I was curious if there was, you know, a hernia or something, very simple going on  and come to find out, you know, it ended up being cancer.  It was pretty minimal. I mean, there was pain, there was discomfort, but it wasn’t excruciating.

Gotcha. It sounds like, so you said tightness. So when I think of that, I literally thought of anxiety off the bat. So then that makes every listener, I would assume who has anxiety is now like, oh my gosh, what is happening to my body?  And so would, does everybody need to run out and get tested for cancer or, 

Courtney: [00:03:11] yeah, don’t recommend that I have struggled with anxiety over the years, and this did feel different than that to me.

But with, with, as a person who, who tends to be a little bit more anxious and very in tune with my body, I definitely knew something was wrong, but I really. Trying not to go the route of like, oh, well it must be cancer.  Which is very easy for my type of personality to do, to go to worst case scenario.

 But yeah, I would say if you’re, if you’re continuously experiencing some discomfort, it never hurts to go to your primary doctor. And that’s exactly what I did.  So that was kind of what started the testing for me. 

Cassandra: [00:03:48] So how did that go? So you go see the doctor, what kind of tests do you do? 

Courtney: [00:03:54] So for her, she said it could have been a hernia or a pulled muscle in my abdomen.

So she said, why don’t we just roll things out and get you a ultrasound? And so I went and did an ultrasound, which I was cracking up. Cause I was like, man, I was really thinking the first time I do an ultrasound will be because I’m pregnant and it’s exciting. And here I am looking for something that’s wrong.

So  definitely.  A little twist different than what I was hoping for. So I did an ultrasound that came back and it showed that there were some abnormalities. And so my doctor said, “All right, well, let’s get you a abdominal CT  cat scan.” So I went and got that. And then that came back and they noticed some swollen lymph nodes.

And at that point that’s really when the concern started for me.  Of course I was nervous up until that point, but I was kind of trying to rule out anything bad  because that doesn’t lead me anywhere. Positive. So once that one came back, she said, there’s swollen lymph nodes. We’re going to do another CT.

We’re going to go do it a chest CT. So the way the CT works is you only, they only take a portion of your body. It’s not a full scan. And so they needed to do a scan of my upper body to see if the small lymph nodes continued. And so that was the first indicator for me that something might be wrong. Cause she said, if that comes back and it ends up being.

More swollen lymph nodes than we’re going to need to biopsy. And when I heard the word biopsy, I was like, oh no, I know what this means. I remember exactly where I was when I got the phone call. And so I was like, okay, I’m gonna take it one step at a time. So I got my abdominal, I had my abdominal, I got my chest.

And then they came back and said, yup, you have more swollen lymph nodes. And at that point I started researching. I was like, okay, what is small lymph nodes? What type of cancer could this be? And ended up finding out that it could be lymphoma.  And that was the primary one that I, that I noticed when I was researching.

 And then they, they did the that second CT and then they’re like, okay, now we need to biopsy. So then I went and had a biopsy done and that took about a week before I got the results back. And that’s when it was. It was conclusive that you have  you ha you know, that I had cancer. And what type 

Cassandra: [00:06:07] of cancer did you have?

Courtney: [00:06:09] So when the doctor, the doctor called me, cause I was living at a state and I was trying to deal with some logistics on things. She called me. And she said, you have non-Hodgkin’s follicular lymphoma. And I was like non wet. That’s a really big, those are a lot of big words. I’ve never heard of this before.

Lymphoma is essentially what I have, but there’s Hodgkin’s lymphoma and non-Hodgkin’s  so mine was non-Hodgkin’s follicular lymphoma. And at the time they weren’t able to categorize.  The stage of cancer.  But she did say I had a lower, a lower grade. So meaning that it was slower growing form of cancer, which is a good sign, still cancer, nonetheless.

But  so then I had to get additional testing, so I had to get. A pet scan, blood work and a bone marrow biopsy. And at that point  I met with the oncologist and found out it was stage four cancer, which when I hear stage four, I instantly think worst case scenario terminal.  And so. It was a little bit of a shock, you know, when I got that news.

 And I can explain a little bit more as to there’s different staging to cancers. And so I can only speak to lymphoma the non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma.  If you stage four means that it’s it’s above and below  your, your waistline.  And because. I had swollen lymph nodes in my groin area and my abdomen and my armpit and my chest.

 It was in multiple areas. And so that’s what categorized it as a stage four.  Thankfully my form of cancer is.  It’s not curable, but it is treatable.  And so that was kind of my saving grace, as I was going into this process, 

Cassandra: [00:07:53] things you don’t know until you get cancer. Am I right? Like, you know, that they’re stage 1, 2, 3, and four, and you know, the forest, not the goodest and one is okay.

And like, but you don’t know what any of those things mean. And so I really appreciate you spelling that out for us. What does that mean? I don’t know what stage four means. All I know is that’s not good. And how is she still here? So that, and it also gives hope to people who are listening, who are like, this just happened to exactly, to me.

How do I. 

Courtney: [00:08:21] Yeah, stage four is definitely a  you know  a punch in the stomach when you hear it.  Just given, you know, I have a lot of people in my life that have  battled cancer in the past.  Those very close to me and my dad being one of them. And my dad unfortunately  had a more aggressive form of cancer.

He had a soft geo cancer and  did treatment and surgery.  Unfortunately his metastasized and, you know, resulted in him passing from cancer. So  I, you know, I, when I heard stage four, it was, it was something that I had to really  Really focused on the fact that that was my dad’s story and that my stories, my story can look different.

That just because we both had stage four does not mean that my, the end of my story is going to result in what his was.  And that’s, that’s probably one of my biggest lessons learned was not to compare. My journey with anybody else’s, every diagnosis is different. Every treatment’s different side-effects are different.

So, you know, for those of you listening, I think what’s key to remember is yes, you can glean and you can learn from others through the process, but also your story is yours and trying not to compare and being like, well there, you know, this ended poorly for them or they had a terrible experience. You have to walk through your through your  journey in that 

Cassandra: [00:09:47] That’s really beautiful Courtney, and that’s something that whatever you’re battling, whatever you’re going through, like, it’s a really good reminder.

How do you get an oncologist?  We’ve gone really deep and we’re going to go rural shallow, but yeah. I’m curious in more of the logistical side for this is how do you pick an oncologist or did you just happen to get lucky? 

Courtney: [00:10:09] Yeah, mine was a little unique because we were moving. So we’re in San Diego, but we were living in Michigan at the time. So I was dealing with my primary, who was out here and we were moving back to California. So it was, it was a little challenging. But my doctor, my primary, doctor’s the one that really helped us walk through each step.

And so, and I would just ask a lot of questions and say, okay, so who’s calling me next and who am I waiting to hear from? And a lot of times,  I was really waiting for them to call, to make appointments. And so that was helpful for me because I wasn’t having to seek out a lot.

Scheduling that they were, they would say, Hey, we’re going to process this. And someone from radiology will call you or someone from oncology we’ll reach out to you and schedule it. So I didn’t, I didn’t pick my oncologist. There was I think two or three at the, at sharp  near our house. And so we got assigned an oncologist and  And that was kind of the, the step.

I think it depends on the type of cancer you have. There are certain, I know people that have a certain type of cancer and they, they seek out someone that really specializes in that non-Hodgkin’s follicular lymphoma is not  a rare cancer.   It’s fairly treatable and there’s a decent survival rate.

And so I wasn’t focused as much. And really at the time there’s so much coming at you that  it, it can be overwhelming in terms of making decisions. So  I’ve seen it done a number of ways with, with other people that they’ve gone and they want to, they want to meet with the best of the best, and that, that works great for them.

I didn’t have that, that urgency or.  Like a conviction to have to go and research a bunch of  different doctors.  I had  going into it really been praying about. What I would do when it comes to treatment, because I saw my dad go through chemo and radiation and I saw how hard it was on him.

And I told myself, I would never, if I ever got cancer, I would never do that. And here we are, you know,  10 years after my dad. I’m in the same in the same spot and trying to make these decisions. So I really spent some time personally praying about it and go and asking God, if I’m, if I do treatment, what treatment should I be doing?

And I felt really peaceful about chemotherapy. And so when I met with the oncologist and I will answer your question of what to look for, but when I met with him, He told me that the best form of treatment was going to be chemotherapy. And so that put me at ease to know that, okay, I was on the right path.

And  and looking back, some things that I would suggest as if you’re someone that fi found out that you are diagnosed with cancer. Some things that I would look for with the doctor is. You have to know your personality types. So for some people they prefer like giving the facts, just tell it to me straight.

Some people prefer a softer approach and want more of a relational aspect or empathy. And  what I learned was I, I, if I were to ever have to go that route again  I would probably find a different doctor because my doctor was a little bit more   even keel and. Not very empathetic. And,  that was challenging for me.

I’m about halfway through, I thought about switching doctors, but I wanted to just finish my treatment that way. So I would say, look for someone that you knowing your personality, what’s gonna, what’s gonna fit best for you.  Also someone that you feel comfortable asking questions around. If you, if you don’t feel like you can ask them questions, then you need to find somebody else because there’s going to be a lot along the way that you.

You need to have those open conversations.  Someone that’s accessible is, is also important and what’s tricky is you don’t know that going into it. So you’re not going to know how accessible they are until you’re a couple appointments in, and you’re trying to, you know, trying to find some time if you’re, if you’re an existing treatment, if you’re an existing patient, that’s getting treatment, they usually push you to the top of the of the chain. So for me right now, being on the other side of it  I’ve noticed a lower, you know, response time on things. And so  those are probably the primary things that I would look for with the doctor.  I didn’t do a second opinion. Maybe, you know, maybe I should have, but I felt pretty peaceful about the treatment plan.

And I really liked the facility and I, there was just a lot of things that for me, made sense to continue going down that path. 

Cassandra: [00:14:34] What I hear you saying though, is that  if you have any concerns about your doctor or you’re not comfortable, it’s really important to, to get that second opinion. It sounds like you didn’t need the second opinion because you were comfortable and.

I also loved that you talked on knowing yourself and knowing your personality. And if you don’t feel like, you know, how you like receiving information, the people near, you know, the people near, you know, how you respond to bad dues or how, who you’re most comfortable around. And that’s not necessarily what matches you because  your doctor.

Sounds like, it would be okay for me, but I do need, I need a little bit of empathy. I’m a very empathetic person, but I cannot work with very empathetic people because I’m like, yeah, it’s too much feelings in here. 

Courtney: [00:15:19] There’s too. There’s too much going on. Yeah. 

Cassandra: [00:15:21] Much factual is like  I need a little bit of love.

I need a little bit of TLC. 

Courtney: [00:15:28] What’s funny is when we went to meet him.  I went with my husband and my mom. And so when went to my doctor came in. So the first time you met him, he introduced himself and said, hi to my mom and said, how did my husband, and then turned to me and introduced himself to me. And then he said, oh, is this your mom and your dad?

And I should have known then that we should have probably just found a new oncologist because my husband goes, I’m her husband and. He was like, oh, I’m so sorry 

Cassandra: [00:15:56] for the record. Courtney’s husband is not older. Like there’s not a less significant aid. 

Courtney: [00:16:02] There’s a four, there’s a four year gap 

Cassandra: [00:16:04] and he doesn’t look older.

Courtney: [00:16:05] No, he’s got a little more salt and pepper  than the average, maybe 40 year olds. But yeah, no way. Was he 25 years older in my mom’s age. And so  we had a good laugh, but later on in the appointment,  he kept trying to. To fix it and say, well, you know, your mom just looks so young and it’s like, we just stop, stop you don’t, you know, you don’t need to go there.

 Looking back, we were like, man, we should’ve known right from the get-go, you know, you got it, got to look for someone different. But you know, as, as the treatments went on, I did have to meet with a couple of their doctors throughout when he was  on vacation or wasn’t available. And that was also another sign for me of like, wow, I really felt more comfortable with this person than I did that person.

So  like I said, I carried out my treatment plan, but. You know, if I were to need more care in the future, I would look elsewhere. So I would just encourage those of you. Don’t this is such a crucial part. Of the process and you want to feel supported and heard and whatever it is that you’re needing.

So don’t settle. This is really important. 

Cassandra: [00:17:09] What happened to your body during treatment, 

Courtney: [00:17:11] What didn’t happen to my body during treatment.   Every form of medicine will have different side effects. So I was grateful that my medication. And I’ll probably butcher how to pronounce them, but I had  Benda bendamustine or bendamustine and Rituxan.

And so   for any of you listening, if,  you can relate to those, to those forms of drugs  My side effects did not include hair loss. So I was very fortunate as a female, not to have to go that route.  But I did experience  fatigue and loss of appetite and nausea and anxiety and depression.

 And I would say the anxiety and depression is something that I’ve dealt with over the years aside from cancer. So I think it really just was heightened  during the process.  But I do think that the medicine problem. Kicked that up a notch. 

Cassandra: [00:18:02] The fact is Courtney has way more to share than we shared with you today.

Today, we focused on how Courtney got diagnosed and took you through the beginning stages of her treatment. Next week, we’ll finish up her treatment and she will give you some awesome tips on self care and for your support system, as well as create an awesome care basket. As always, you can find more information at neededandknown.com or in the show notes.

Thank you for helping Courtney to feel needed and known until you need me next time. Bye.

How to Be a Quality Friend with Heart Convos

This friendship kinda sucks.

You know it. They know it. But what now? Does your relationship need more Snapchats or TikTok dances together? Perhaps a night out will fix it? 

Take the guesswork out of what’s next. In this episode, KB from Heart Convos shares her journey from Trash Friend to having meaningful Heart Convos. What does a good friendship look like? How do I make simple changes to get to the relationships I want to have and to be the best kind of friend that I can be?
The transcript and resources for this episode can be found below.

Subject Resources

Heart Convos Website

Ted Talk: 9 Ways To Tell If Your Friends Are Trash

KB and Heart Convos on Instagram

Transcript

Cassandra: 0:00

Hey friend, it’s Cassandra, and this is needed average moments into a great life by learning, growing, and I interview amazing people, who’ve improved their Today I’m interviewing KB from Heart Convos. She’s a conversation coach who has a lot to If you’ve ever wondered how to go deeper in your relationships why some people don’t, this is the episode for you.

KB: 0:37

Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited

Cassandra: 0:39

to be here. Okay. So let’s just start at the beginning. Tell us about your revelation that you were a trash friend.

KB: 0:46

I don’t know if it was a one time moment, however, I think And I think I had one too many bad breakups and friendship. I had just a ton of disappointing conversations, to that place of like, I don’t know what’s wrong and I’m tired And so. It wasn’t a one time like, oh my gosh, like I see just a discontent with being where I was in friendship. And over time it was like, I’m sick of this. Like I need something different. And so that’s how it, that’s kinda how it started for me.

Cassandra: 1:31

That’s awesome. I think what drew me to you is the fact that I have I’m like, no, you’re not a bad friend to me. I don’t know who you’re being a bad friend to. And also I feel like a bad friend, a lot of the time, That’s the person I want to be a friend with. That’s the part, that’s the person I do not want to be And so you start identifying those things That’s not good. Oh, we get along real well, everything is good. But then this thing happened and I don’t want to talk about it. So we’re just going to forget about,

KB: 2:05

yeah and after you have one too many bad situations, paying attention, because when everything’s going good, Nobody’s paying attention to anything. It’s when you have the, you lose the one friend that you thing blows up that you didn’t really want to blow up or drift Like how we got here. And so where did we go wrong?

Cassandra: 2:31

Anyway? So many of us feel like trash friends sometimes. And like, we know when we’re being a bad friend, we know when like, we don’t know exactly what we’re doing or how to fix it. And I think for, you know, there’s two types of art There’s the pursuer, the one who’s like, what can Can we just, what can I do? I know I did something wrong. Like what can I do? And then there’s the other side. That’s like, Just let us slide. We’ll just move on.

KB: 3:00

Yeah. I think people swing to the extremes of like, I don’t care. I’m too busy. I don’t have time anyway, like that guarded. Like I’m not going to let this affect me more than I than I want it to, or more than what’s convenient for me. But then there’s the other side that of people who are just Like I want this to work and sometimes that’s motivated sometimes there are people who, or like they, they are they don’t like to lose things for not, or let things Like they want understanding they want clarity. They don’t like kind of living in the fog and uncertainty And so they’re the ones asking the questions, But it’s all about values. It’s all about where you’re at. It’s all about what you want. And if you know what you want, you will be more intentional But when it comes to friendships, we’re not thinking date, we think deeply when we’re married, we’re trying to, We think very deeply when it comes to friendships,

Cassandra: 4:11

Well, and they’re all the same. I mean, obviously I’m not sleeping with my friends, but. Ultimately the core of the relationship is the same. That, that like the, the needs are, are similar, Everything is similar about your friendships or whoever you’re dating or whatever, the similar core. But like you say, we don’t put any emphasis on that Ooh. But if I want to get married, I know what I expect. I know what he needs to look like. I need.

KB: 4:44

Cool reg, I don’t understand why in friendship, we kind like stand the test of time and to get us through our Yeah. You know, again, like you said, in marriage, in dating people They have their expectations listed out some of them since They’ve got boundaries, you know, in mind for like what And again, in my mind, I’m thinking to myself, if practicing this in your friendships, your entire life, And all of a sudden just know what to do. I don’t, I, it would be hard to believe that that’s possible. Which is why I think the people don’t stay together because is whatever sex is, whatever friendship is going to be. The reason why you and I are still in this thing,

Cassandra: 5:40

I do

KB: 5:42

for the friendship, you know, But a lot of people realize like, oh, there’s not really a friendship here. There’s not, we got together for agreement’s sake, But people downplay the power of friendships so often. And that’s really, I think what sustained That’s really good. That’s really good. So if you’re listening and you’re single, go make some real Just make good friendships with people. You, you hear those stories of like, we were friends for so And that’s why that’s genuinely why I think that happens. Or like, so like my husband, we met through a friend, a friend know, you see him and you’re like, who’s that I don’t want Keep your Playboy or whatever, which is hilarious. You know, you get this impressions and it doesn’t, And we don’t do, we don’t do anything like that for friends she’s got a nice first or, you know, I really liked whatever. And you base everything on that. One thing that you liked or that one conversation instead of. Yes, the deepness. So listen, if we picked our S if we picked our romantic we pick our friends, there would be so much judgment. Like you didn’t ask any questions, did you? Yeah, no, it would be a problem.

Cassandra: 7:09

Well, and I think to your point, it kind of These were good. He was, he was good looking. She was good looking and that’s all it took. And here, like we’re Megan horrified faces of like,

KB: 7:24

here. This isn’t going to end. Well, this is not,

Cassandra: 7:28

those are the worst. Nobody wants to go to your wedding. I gotta be honest with you. I’ve been to a couple where you sitting in the way you’re like, Lord, please let this work out, please. Let me be wrong. I’m okay to be wrong about this. So to, to segue a little you have a really great Ted And we should look through those trash bins. If, if anybody listening once hear the Ted talk, I think you We’re not going to talk about all nine of them. What are your favorite ones on that list of like, If I could summarize these nine things down into a few

KB: 8:05

Yeah. So the Ted talk is called nine ways to tell if If you type in that nine ways to tell it’ll pop up Ooh, they won’t go deep as my favorite. I love the story that I tell about my daughter And so I, I feel like I need to go through all nine so that I don’t even know if I could say them verbatim. Let me see. The relationship is one sided. They don’t respect your boundaries. They’re not supportive. They treat other people poorly. They won’t fight for you or with you. You’re not a priority. Did I say that? They won’t go deep. They’re abusive. They’re character sucks. I think are the nine. I think I might’ve repeated one, but my favorite one is number of my daughter us taking her to Disney world and she wanted And so we get to the pool she’s in her bathing suit I don’t, first of all, I don’t do shared water. So it was a big sacrifice for me. Okay. And so we’re in the pool. When I come on a mine, like, come get it. And she’s like, no, she’s just enjoying, like keeping her feet, of playing at the, you know, not even in the shallow end, After about 45 minutes of this, we were like, oh, we’re So we get up to the room and naturally her grandparents say, How did it go? Was like, it was good. We went swimming. And in my mind, I know you did not sweat. I don’t know what your definition of swimming. But what you did was not swimming. And I think sometimes people feel that way in They’re being honest, open, vulnerable, transparent. It’s like, you know, you’re not really, like you might But that transparent part, that vulnerability part, you’re And you keep resisting going there because you’re guarded. You feel like, oh, if I go there, have the ability They’re going to hurt me. So I just kind of act like I have it all And that to me is, is I think my favorite of online Not because I enjoy people that won’t go deep, but that people should be mindful of in their relationships. That when a person will not lean into vulnerability in something about what they want and your, the relationship

Cassandra: 10:36

you know, I think that’s so. That’s so good. We have, we have some interviews coming up and One lady Who has cancer, who has she’s in remission now. So you know, she’s been fighting cancer and just the goes through that of like, I have no control over my body. I can’t do what I want. And if you’re not willing to have those conversations, one, And two. That relationship isn’t growing. And if it’s not growing, it’s dying. There’s no such thing as standing.

KB: 11:07

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Cassandra: 11:09

So how can we go from being unavailable trash connections and as wise woman might say: Heart Convos

KB: 11:20

Yeah. You know let me just say in general, it’s not that, well, dang, I’m a trash friend because I’ve been in one side at And that doesn’t make you a trash friend. I think what, what I would say makes someone a trash friend for so many years is that I had all of these traits. Alive and active in my life. And I was unwilling to change them. I had settled down into them and made them the standard Seeing the damage that it was causing and then wanting to. Fix or mend or grow beyond the behavior and And so don’t feel away if you’re like, oh, I can relate to that. That’s great. You can relate to that. That means that you are, there’s a level of self-awareness becomes what are you going to do about it now? And so we’ve all been through bad breakups. We’ve all been, yeah. Awkward situations with our friends, we’ve all been things the question becomes, are you going to verbalize Are you going to set new boundaries? Are you going to practice new habits that you weren’t doing? So when you got into that place where you’re fed up with the You essentially start to debrief, which is just a And you’re trying to figure out where have And where do I want to go? And once you start asking those questions, that’s when I know Sometimes people just want to hear themselves talk. Some people just want to talk just to say that they Isn’t effective, didn’t go anywhere. And isn’t producing the outcome that they want. And so heart combos are the only conversations I And heart is an acronym for honest, elephant And in my personal opinion, if you are not having conversations or one of these five things, you’re probably not having It’s not a conversation that’s going to get you And typically. Conversations that are hard. Conversations are conversations that we perceive So we’re like, well, did you tell her, well, no. Well, why didn’t you tell her? Oh, so hard. Okay. Like, all right. Did you know that that didn’t go well this time, but next should probably set a boundary and said, you’re not comfortable It’s going to be so hard. You know, what did you, did you, did you confront your boss? No, that’s such a hard conversation. These things in our mind that are hard and difficult And they seem hard because it’s going to require a level Right. Right. And so the heart conversation is just you being honest, when Give the honest answer, not the, not the answer that wants to hear, not the answer that you usually give. If it’s not true in the moment, give the honest answer. If there’s an issue in the relationship or in addressed the elephant in the room, call it out. However, people don’t like to have those conversations or have about that thing that seems like larger than life. People don’t do that. They like to stay on the surface. They don’t like to rock the boat. They don’t, they don’t want to go into the deep end. They want to sit at the steps, like my daughter and Right? Like that’s not what we’re doing here, you know? And so that, that is, I think how a person turns the corner are either exposed to a side of them that they don’t They become distracted. In the way that they’re connecting with other people. And the question is when you see yourself for who you are, eyes to it and like, pretend that it’s not there, or are You know? And so that’s really, I think that for myself, Again, going back to your initial question for how I And again, I’ve had a lot of conversations And I just got tired of, I mean, I was, it was exhausting. I don’t know if anybody ever can relate to that, How

Cassandra: 15:33

is the weather anyway? You know, like,

KB: 15:36

like how’s that working out for you? Yes,

Cassandra: 15:39

that is, oh, how’s that working out for you? You did all these things. How’s that work?

KB: 15:44

How’s that working out for? You

Cassandra: 15:46

talk about heart combos though. So we’re talking to, let’s say we’re talking to brand new, like I don’t have all of them. I, you know, I’m a pretty good friend. I think there’s a thing that happens that we So that listeners have an action step. Cause you can’t, you can just dive into the heart combos and heart combos, but how beautiful are they going to be KB let’s

KB: 16:15

the conversations that you’re going to try to have,Cassandra: 16:17

it will be awful. You need practice and what’s the best way maybe to get practice.

KB: 16:24

Listen, the conversations are going to be rough. At first, probably anxiety inducing, like legit. You’re going to talk to yourself and be in your head And then you’re going to, you’re gonna, you’re going I’m doing it. And then you’re going to go. And everything that you thought would happen will not happen. And that could be a good thing or a bad thing. Like you could think that, oh, this is not going to go well. And the person’s like, oh my gosh. Yes, absolutely. I’m so glad that you said that like just water off a Duck’s Like, yeah. I wish you would have said it earlier. Like really. And you’re just like, why did I stress? I’ve almost died, almost killed myself, you know, over And it was the easiest conversation ever, but then situations where you’re going to be hopeful that the They’re going to understand. And next thing you know, they’ve completely flipped the know, Whenever you were bringing it to the table is your fault. And you’re selfish and this is, this was you. And it’s like, oh, I wasn’t prepared for that. And you’re going to feel completely betrayed. And, and the reality is in order to establish deep, relationships that you have to lean into vulnerability. Now, let me tell you a little. The key to deep, meaningful connections is vulnerability. But the formula for being egregiously hurt So like, if you think about the word vulnerability, the it means to wound a person is not vulnerable unless they are So whatever you think honorability is, if you can’t You might’ve been honest. You might’ve been okay. But you weren’t vulnerable. And the only way that deep, meaningful, intimate There’s no way around making those types of attachments with Okay. Now, I’m also saying in the same breath, that that is the be disappointed, to be hurt, to be taken advantage of. And so you have to make a decision every day and If deep, meaningful connection is a possibility and you think that in the beginning, you will probably leaning to It go wrong. I didn’t sign up for this. I just can’t. I am not here for this, but the, but the reality is in order people that are authentic and that are genuine, you And I’ll say this even after this, but People typically go into a relationship pretending to wants them to be or who they should be for the connection. And then the other person falls in love with that person, So then what happens is they just start creating acceptance for this person that you have shown them what Is that you think that you, the true you, the yourself is being accepted is being, is being embraced. So you let your guard down and you’re no longer pretending Well, what happens is now the other person is seeing And depending on the personality type, they’re like, who are you? I want the other person. I don’t like this. And so now you feel rejected. And let me tell you what is happening. You are being rejected, but the difference between you being you’ve invested six months, pretending is that the real Hurt more latent in the, in the ladder, right? It’s going to hurt more after you’ve invested. There’s been interest incurred. You both have been super intentional. You’ve cultivated intimacy. And now all that gets ripped apart because You know what I mean? You just show up on the front, end, the person. It’s their prerogative to say, I’d like you, I don’t like stake in it, you know, there, there are no, there’s no like It doesn’t, it doesn’t fill away. You know? I mean, I’m not saying that that the desire to connect Right. That’s my favorite part . And so it just explains the, the, that we feel when we don’t get the thing that we were hoping You are perfectly normal to feel that way. However, When it, it hurts more, it hurts more when you invested. And so all I’m suggesting is, as you’re thinking about vulnerability in order to attain deep, meaningful connections and that you think is it worth me not being vulnerable in order And then it falling apart later or. Completely, you know, like vulnerability is the only


Cassandra: 21:50

Part of it, a huge part of that, which And is knowing who, who you are for me. I was told all my childhood who I was and what I was like. And so as a 35 year old woman, I’m figuring, Like I didn’t, I didn’t have a favorite anything Cause I was like petrified to have a favorite anything. And so now I’m like, what colors do I like? You know, like, At my age. So part of that part, it’s all, it’s all this train It’s not something you listen to one podcast and It’s a, you got to get on board.

KB: 22:32

Absolutely. And you make a great point. You can not make sense of yourself in relationship If you can’t make sense of yourself, like you have to in order to know how you, I mean, in order to form healthy So let me just say that again. Clearly you have to be able to make sense of yourself before Okay, so you alone by yourself, understanding your narrative, are, how you got there again, where you want to go, what you All of, all of those things have to be solidified and up as your most authentic self, in a relationship So I go there, I agree wholeheartedly with what.

Cassandra: 23:21

I love it. KB, you are wonderful human. I’m so thankful for you. I’m so thankful for heart combos and all of the And for this time together,

KB: 23:31

Hey, I appreciate you. I really, really do thank you for elevating these types of think at the end of the day, I love the title of this space, Listen being mean. Okay. Can I just say this really quickly meeting, like the that statement in phrase gets such a bad rap. It’s such a bad rap. Like it’s like wrong. Like I just don’t want to be neat. I don’t want to be perceived as needy. I don’t want to come off as needy. It’s like, but you need, like, you do need, Of who you are. It’s a part of our makeup. It’s part of the way that we built. We form attachments with other people. If we were self-sufficient and didn’t need anybody, robots. So I love the fact that you are elevating this Right. And, and known, you know, and I think people need to know that You have something that you’re bringing to the table. So I love it needed to known as dope to me. I rock with it. I love it. I support it. And yeah, I’m excited to see where all this goes. So thank you for having me and for listening to math. Me get on my soap box

Cassandra: 24:51 KB’s friend tips on Instagram, or to learn more You can find links in the show notes or visit needed Thank you for helping KB to be needed and known until Bye.